Space-a into and out of Jackson, Miss

Author Message   FHYL Advanced Member Username: Fhyl Post Number: 374 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 68.68.131.47 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 01:35 pm:    I've experienced similar as in Ed's situation. Empty C-141 flying from ADW to Elmendorf to pick up load of troops for transport to Hicham. The first flight leg manifest was closed (i.e., No SPAT PAX). A retired O-6 AMC pilot (CAT VI traveling companion) recognized that one of "the crew" was wearing a non-aircrew uniform. After a few pointed interogatives, the "closed manifest" was opened. Rationale: One of four SPATs was a CAT III Gunny, trying to hop to HI. The CAT III was a higher priority than the "suited up girlfriend". Icing on the cake: After a week in the islands, the A/C returned to ADW. The O-6 caught a ride. I was offered a hop but declined to finish family stuff (w/ many sched flts later in the wk). It pays to know the rules, recognize "shenanigans" and have the "kahunas" to speak up.   Nick Watson Member Username: Clermontnick Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 64.45.236.232 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 12:23 pm:    Cherry and Ed: Good points were raised by both of you--many thanks for the insight. As I get older, and farther away from my active duty days, I appreciate the insight of folks like you. You both are right, many factors weigh into these transport missions. In closing, life sure was easier when all I had to do was drop bombs and shoot the gun. Ahh, the good old days! Thanks again, guys, for your valuable comments and insight. Nick Watson   Ed Williams Senior Member Username: Hooter55 Post Number: 714 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 140.32.107.150 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 12:13 pm:    Nick, The problem is an old one of the Air Terminal Operations Centers (ATOC) not talking with each other and collaborating on things like thru seat releases, etc. It's a very simple process to call ahead to see what the next downline station may have in the way of a backlog (cargo and pax) and what priorities they are - but they still just don't get the idea of working with each other. As to the loading of cargo or passengers on an aircraft, if there is space - the aircraft commander better have a darn good excuse as to why he cannot fill spaces or seats. It's his aircraft to command, but the aircraft is there to do a mission.....i.e. to move stuff. On more than one occasion I've had to call on an AC to explain why it's more important for him to move German clocks (a whole pallet position as an example) back home for him and his crew rather than priority cargo needed at the next destination. On one occasion, I examined the crew orders and found an extra person listed (added on in pen/pencil) who was not a crew member (loadmaster's girlfriend) and told the AC I would consider her a stowaway. She was occupying a critical seat I needed for an Emergency Leave airman.....and she was onboard illegally. Needless to say, she was downloaded on the spot and the aircraft departed with the Emergency Leave. There are legitimate reasons sometimes....if they are on a training mission involving low level flight; hazardous non-waiverable cargo; sensitive or classified cargo; etc. that may preclude the addition of more stuff. Bottom line....(a repeat from above)...the aircraft commands the aircraft, but the aircraft belongs to the taxpayer. And the taxpayer wants to get his money's worth out of the mission. Will this ruffle some feathers? Probably to the aircrew community. But look at this from the big picture standpoint and you'll probably see I've brought out some good points. We all need to work together as a team.   Cherry C. Senior Member Username: Cherry Post Number: 6306 Registered: 06-2003 Posted From: 71.163.18.160 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 12:05 pm:    Nick, that's a reasonable question. Your jet was not tasked with moving needed cargo to bases overseas. Today's cargo aircraft exist for that purpose. The cargo they will take often is loaded at their last stateside stop. In the case of the flights being discussed, McGuire is that stop, and they are the only ones who know how much must go, what space it will occupy, and -- most important -- what it will weigh. We sometimes use the phrase that a certain base "owns" the flight to indicate that they have the last word on what the plane will carry. Sometimes the upstream base will call the final departure point and "negotiate" for a certain number of seats to be allowed from there all the way through. SPATs can always at least ask the people at the base where they board if this could be done. Without such negotiations, the originating base can manifest passengers only as far as the base that owns the flight. At that point they must disembark and compete with everyone else waiting there for any potential spaces.   Nick Watson Member Username: Clermontnick Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 64.45.236.232 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 11:31 am:    I have a question ref. this "who/how many get manifested through" business at enroute stops: Granted, I'm a fighter guy by background (2600 hours in the F-4 Phantom) and am unsure of transport protocols, but here's what I don't get: How can someone at McGuire (or any other enroute base) tell the Aircraft Commander, of a Jackson ANGB C-17, how many PAX he can load on HIS airplane? Again, I'm no expert on transport ops, but when I was on active duty, NOBODY told me who (or what) I could put on MY jet! Can anybody clarify for me? Obviously, something else is in play here. Thanks. Nick Watson   Robert W. Intermediate Member Username: Bob9125 Post Number: 52 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 80.148.27.83 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 02:18 am:    Just took the Monday flight from Jackson that got routed through McGuire. McGuire was slow in notifying Jackson on seat release so they manifested everyone that wanted to go to Ramstein to that destination before we left Jackson. When we got to McGuire the crew lobbied strongly for keeping all of the Jackson passengers on the flight. As a result, all of the passengers from Jackson stayed on the flight and we picked up a few more at McGuire. Seating was tight as we were loaded to the gills with cargo. The folks at Andrews did manage to scare off a few SPATS by telling us that there was a 98% chance that we would all be bumped at McGuire. Most folks took the chance and stayed on the flight because of the Jackson crew's reputation of looking out for their SPATS. Jackson crews are great!   JEB Senior Member Username: Wingrider Post Number: 489 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 75.77.48.130 Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 09:47 pm:    As one who flies out of Jackson often...and always appreciated the "assured" ride to Germany, I've noticed a trend I'm not liking the last couple of weeks. It seems like the flights are now being routed thru McGuire, hopefully only temporarily. I just worry that it may be permanent. The problem with that routing is that McGuire normally doesn't let SPATs from other bases manifest thru and you have to recompete there for seats to Germany. I am much closer to Memphis and they fly the Memphis/McGuire/Ramstein route frequently, but McGuire does not let them manifest thru, so I normally drive on down to Jackson. I've often wondered how flying an empty cargo aircraft to Ramstein could be justified, especially knowing that just up the road Memphis was also flying to Ramstein, but carrying a full load out of McGuire. So as a taxpayer, this looks like a much more efficient way to get more cargo to Europe, but as a SPAT, I sure will miss that "assured" flight if the present trend continues.   Denny Knott Senior Member Username: Degause01 Post Number: 1384 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 98.183.26.167 Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 05:49 pm:    Cherry, I don't believe the Navy Side at Andrews will let the AFB side know of C12 flights up and down the east coast.   Cherry C. Senior Member Username: Cherry Post Number: 6292 Registered: 06-2003 Posted From: 71.163.18.160 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 10:02 pm:    It's true that on the specific Ramstein-to-Andrews leg of the medevac circuit flown out of Jackson, seats for SPATs are rare because of the needs and numbers of recovering wounded being returned stateside. Seats usually ARE available, at least outside the crazy summer months of high space-a use, on the other 3 legs (Jackson to Andrews, Andrews to Ramstein, and Andrews back to Jackson). If you got to Andrews (via any method recommended below) you might find an aircraft going even closer than Jackson to your final destination -- take a look in the Flight Schedules section to see the usual patterns from there. Going to Jackson could remain as your backup "sure thing" from Andrews, but you also might find flights into various spots in Florida or even south Georgia. BTW, the "Navy side" at Andrews does notify the AMC terminal of just about all of their available flights, and so you will hear many Navy destinations on the regular flight recordings. Space-a passengers hoping for Navy flights are processed at AMC terminal, not by Navy personnel. (This is because at Andrews only the AMC terminal has the machinery and trained personnel to accomplish required security screenings.)   tim duncan Advanced Member Username: Duncanta Post Number: 152 Registered: 06-2003 Posted From: 99.73.181.2 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 09:29 pm:    CHECK OUT THE NAVY SIDE INTO NEW ORLEANS AND JACKSONVILLE !!! TIM   william brown Senior Member Username: Brown9bill Post Number: 632 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 108.0.100.243 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 09:28 pm:    You might want to think about going from Ramstein to Mildenhall and catching a flight out of Mildenhall to MacDill. Check the flight schedule section to see how often flights go from Mildenhall to MacDill. Happy Travels.   Charles Purchner Member Username: Charliep Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 67.61.205.249 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 04:45 pm:    I agree with "TR", and "Martha" I fly in and out of Jackson frequently to Ramstein, and, it is rare to get on the flight to Andrews from Ramstein. As "Martha" stated, your best bet it to take the Pat Ex (charter flight) to BWI then work your way to Andrews for a flight to Jackson. I almost always end up paying the $27.00 or so, and taking the Pat Ex to BWI then the metro and bus to Andrews AFB. Since Charleston AFB is closer to Orlando than Jackson is, that would seem a more likely choice to me.   James H. Coppens Intermediate Member Username: Coppens1 Post Number: 72 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 134.93.42.54 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 02:28 pm:    It sounds like getting to Jacskson from Germanz would not work out. I will be returning from Germany, with final destination Orlando. When I left the states 4.23, I left by way of MacDill-Chas-Ramstein. I am looking for the alternatives to get back to Orlando. JC   Martha Fralia Advanced Member Username: Mjfralia Post Number: 364 Registered: 06-2003 Posted From: 75.141.137.233 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 01:11 pm:    Check with the folks at Jackson about return flights. From Germany these are med evac flights that normally don't take passengers. Most used to come back through Andrews but that is not always the case. For those flights that transit Andrews, your best bet is take the PatEx to BWI and rent a car to Andrews. Hertz is on base. There is also public transportation from BWI to Andrews which is very easy to use. Space-A and General Information: http://www.172aw.ang.af.mil/spacea.asp Pax number: (601)405-8761 (Recording after duty hours)   TR Advanced Member Username: Travel_ready Post Number: 217 Registered: 06-2003 Posted From: 74.192.161.189 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 01:10 pm:    James, you may be better served with available flights and distance traveled by flying from Spangdahlem to Charleston and return.   Robert Putlock Intermediate Member Username: Putlock Post Number: 82 Registered: 02-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.208 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 12:40 pm:    Jackson is a great place to use to get to RMS. Never heard of any Cat VI's not making the flight from Jackson to RMS. SWA flies into Jackson A/P and a $10 taxi gets you across into the Guard Base. I have taken the C-17 flight. Normally it stops at Andrews where you can order/buy an in-flight box lunch. Very difficult to fly back since it is usually a medivac return.   James H. Coppens Intermediate Member Username: Coppens1 Post Number: 71 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 134.93.42.54 Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 06:46 am:    I notice there are quite a few flights out of Ramstein going to Jackson, Miss, which I believe is an ANGB. Has anyone flown into or out of there? I am currently in Germanz planning to go back to US 5-31, ending up in Orlando FL. Jackson Miss might be a good bet, if I can find out more about it. JC