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Another tradition soon going away....

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Chuck F
Member
Username: Snipe

Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 68.1.96.12
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 11:14 pm:   

Mike, In goat locker in the old navy we would call a chief doing what that chief was doing, very enterprising. My personel opinion is he was a poor example to he people and he should have been busted. Maybe even sent to the Castle. But you have to laugh about it.

Chuck F.
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Bill Hamilton
Intermediate Member
Username: Samarai

Post Number: 76
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 75.223.19.168
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 08:45 pm:   

Served over 20 years in USAF active/reserve, went over to Army as a E8, went through WO basic and Communications-Electronics technical school, graduated and pinned on W2 two days later. Called up for Gulf war I. Had only a certain amount of time before I was required to take the commissioning oath also or get out. Served 12 years and retired.

Thanks for all the kind words

Bill
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Earl
Senior Member
Username: Myramstein

Post Number: 781
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 173.104.191.142
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 04:39 pm:   

Jim, to me the heros are the fine young men and women who are serving now and who served in the past. WO, commissioned, enlisted, does not matter. They are all heros.

May God bless those fine aviation warrants who did their job in VN and did not come back.

They are the ones I admire. I simply did my job and served the best that I could.

I wanted to inform you about the WO business in the Army. I did nothing compared to what those other warrants did.

Not many days go by without me thinking of some of them. Bless them.
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Earl
Senior Member
Username: Myramstein

Post Number: 780
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 173.104.191.142
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 04:25 pm:   

Jim, nope. No dual status and no ten years of service required.

I have never heard of being "offered W-2 (to serve dual status)" and never heard of being required to do 10 years commissioned service.
I will not tell you my grade, but will tell you that at one time in my career (30 years active duty) I held a USAR commission in the AG Corps while serving as an active duty MI warrant.

I was moved into MI from aviation. This is hardly heard of these days.

Army Warrants were not required to be commissioned until the late 80s. But, they were, and still are, required to become Regular Army (RA) warrants after making W2.

Army WOs are appointed, in most cases, as W1s. Required to do two years as a W1 then get promoted to W2. This two year period serves as a “trail period.” You mess up as a WO1 you are shown the door. Very few enlisted members do not make W2 and are booted out. I say “a few” because they are already the best and an expert in their field when they get appointed as a warrant. They compete against the best in their field.

Rotor head warrants are the best in their aviation class and I feel better than commissioned aviators in the Army (03s, 04s etc). I am sure some commissioned rotor head will yell at me for saying that.

Army aviation warrants in the Army during VN war were sharp and had guts.

From the aviation warrants, and other branch warrants, I talk with today, that has not changed. I would say they are smarter than when I was in. And above all willing to do their job to protect and help the troops at all costs.

Myth is “if you don’t make it to W2 you can return to enlisted stats.” This is not true. Failure to perform as a W1 and not making W2 is your fault. This is not a RIF from commissioned status through no fault of your own. I personally knew an E7 who applied for WO. He messed up as a W1 and was gone. No reverting back to enlisted status.

Each MOS (branch) has different requirements for enlisted members to become warrants. Some of the “core” requirements (subject to change based upon DA needs) are approx 8 years experience in your field, college degree, high test scores, no UCMJ actions,high PT scroes, leadership schooling and so on. Aviation warrants applied and went directly to Ft Rucker for helo training. The requirement of having years of experience in a certain branch does not apply.

You were appointed as a Res WO. Then you got VI status. But, to make it a career you had to apply for, and hope you got it, Regular Army RA.

Later the Army stated this "commission" bit for Army WO. But with no obligation for 10 years attached to it.

After you got RA and above W2 you just kept on going doing your job. There was, and even today, no "reenlisting" or certain years added as commission.

Army warrants, and suspect USN, USMC and CG warrants are the same, serve in increasing positions of responsibility as the technical know it all in their fields, with top grade of W5.

WO do not have to make W5 to serve until 62 years of age while on active duty. W5 positions are limited positions at Pentagon, DA level, etc.

Depending on the size of the branch, each WO branch has one, two, or a few W5 positions.

Personally I feel there is no better grade than being a WO.
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 212
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 04:16 pm:   

The rule/regulation/law was that a person could retire in the highest grade held satisfactorily.
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Jim Hunt
Intermediate Member
Username: Jhunt66

Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 66.31.169.240
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:33 pm:   

This thread is great - not much to do with Space-A, but instructive, nonetheless. Question: when I was E-7 in the VN era, many of us were offered W-2 (to serve dual status), but most declined because because 10 years' commissioned service was required in order to retire in grade, and most of us already had more than 10 years toward our 20. Is that still the case -- do WO's still carry dual status? Is 10 years still required?
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Earl
Senior Member
Username: Myramstein

Post Number: 779
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 173.104.12.168
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 12:40 pm:   

Ed and all, Army Warrants are appointed in many branches (fields) such as JAGC, transportation, supply, logistics, maintenance, CIDC, personnel, Intel, MI, medical equip, POL and many more branches.

The Army helo guys are called "rotor heads" and ground warrants are called "legs."

Legs are the expert in their field and only work in that field for their entire career. They are expected to lead and know their job or move on out of the Army.

Army warrants can now serve on active duty until age 62! Talk about experience!

But most retire early and get good jobs in the civilian world in their field.

Lots of rivalry between the two groups. But, when it comes time to get the job done, helping other warrants and taking care of the troops they work together to get the mission done.

They are also expected to "mentor" young dumb newbie 01 and 02s.
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Mike Spengel
Advanced Member
Username: Mike_sp

Post Number: 358
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.95.149.155
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 06:51 am:   

Chuck F, I knew a Chief who was reduced to PO2. For over a year he had been telling his command that his wife, who lived a few hundred miles from his base, was dying of cancer. Each Thursday he requested special liberty so that he could have a three day weekend to spend with his suffering spouse. Well, one day said spouse called to ask why her husband hadn't contacted her in several months. You guessed the rest...no cancer and hubby had been shacking up with a local gal on his long weekends. The command did not look kindly on his perfidy.
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Carole G
Advanced Member
Username: Greengal

Post Number: 207
Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 68.205.151.181
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:20 am:   

O. K. guys, your points are well taken. All branches of the military have their specific roles and missions. They each have their own traditions and respect for different ranks. Thank goodness we have people that love each of these different branches. Hats off to all branches for all they do and what they have done to keep our country free. Bless our young men and women who serve our country proudly in each branch.
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Dakota Ray
Senior Member
Username: Rhammer

Post Number: 453
Registered: 05-2007
Posted From: 69.62.147.217
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:11 am:   

To all the Warrant Officers and Chiefs--

My hat is off to you guys!!!
OK-I guess that I no longer wear a hat but if I did it would be off.

You guys were indeed the people that managed to get things done.

Thanks for your service and dedication!!
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 211
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:07 am:   

Couple of points:

Can only speak to my time: 1952-72, but I believe most of the Army helo (that's Navy for chopper) pilots were young W.O. with very little time in the Army. I'm willing to stand corrected.

I think the vast majority of those young guys served in VN and performed heroically.

The Navy did have a large number of W.O. I recall we had a Warrant Bosun in my first ship and I also remember a Warrant Cook (who, BTW was on the Bataan Death March and served as General Wainwright's personal cook while a POW.) and a Warrant Pay Clerk. Guess they were phased out.

I don't knock Warrants or Air Force E-9s, or those of any other service. However, the Navy Chief does occupy a unique position in the military, if for no other reason, although not the only one by a long shot, of the uniform change when promoted to E-7 and the berthing provided on Navy ships where Chief's enjoy private dining and berthing similar to officers.

However, those are just manifestations of the regard with which the Navy holds Chiefs.

I made the "hat" while at Eakin Compound, Can Tho RVN, headquarters of the 9th ID and Operation SEALORDS. I recall the remarks of the senior NCOs who helped me celebrate. They all expressed the wish that the Army had a similar postion. Not paygrade, but the unique position of the Chief.

Again, I have the greatest respect for all the troops and am not suggesting that Navy Chiefs are better than senior NCOs of other services. We do, however, occupy a position, and a tradition, that is unique. The privileges and respect that Chiefs receive is recognition of that special position linking the enlisted Sailors with the officers. Many an officer, from Ensigns to Admirals, have answered questons by saying "Ask the Chief."

The Navy has named two ships "Chief." "The USS CHIEF MCM-14 is named for the former USS CHIEF AM-315, and to honor the service and tradition of the Chief Petty Officer's of the United States Navy." CHIEF is now serving with United States THIRD Fleet.

http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/mcm14/pages/ourship.aspx
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Jim Hunt
Intermediate Member
Username: Jhunt66

Post Number: 71
Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 66.31.169.240
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:22 am:   

Earl:
You are indeed correct, sir! The Army Warrant Officer is a special breed, indeed. The Navy never did embrace the warrant concept (except maybe in the excellent ship repair facilities), but I fondly remember my days in the club at DaNang or Subic trying to keep up with Army WO helo pilots -- they were, to the man, my heroes. My brother was at Ia Drang Valley - he still gets all choked up when he talks about what those guys did.
I will hoist a mug to any of them, anytime. Thanks for setting me straight, Earl. Stay Army Stong!
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Carole G
Advanced Member
Username: Greengal

Post Number: 206
Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 68.205.151.181
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:21 am:   

O.K Chiefs, you are stepping on toes. The Air Force has a
"real chief", E-9. And they get things done right.
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Earl
Senior Member
Username: Myramstein

Post Number: 778
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 173.105.49.144
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:12 am:   

Jim, yes the US Navy Chief does get the job done...

But bid to differ with your statement "The Navy Chief is the grease that allows the wheel to turn - simple as that. No other service has a comparable position -- none. "

A comparable position is the US Army Warrant Officer. They are the ones who get the job done, that allows the wheel to turn, as you say.

So there are comparable positions.

May God bless our fine young men and women serving down range today.
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 210
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:06 am:   

Chief Hunt:

Well Done!

Chief Williamson
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Jim Hunt
Intermediate Member
Username: Jhunt66

Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 66.31.169.240
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:01 am:   

Unless they've been there, I would encourage all "outsiders" to stop the theoretical posturing about what a Navy Chief is and how he/she fits into the overall scheme. The Navy Chief is the grease that allows the wheel to turn - simple as that. No other service has a comparable position -- none.
As for the RIF/review boards -- do the math. As the Navy shrinks (230 ships today vs 600 in 1980), the ranks of all leaders will continue to shrink. The Navy is top heavy in Chief's and needs to pare down to its fighting weight.
I could not be more proud of my days as a Navy Chief. I took retirement as an O-4 only because it paid more...I still consider myself a "Chief".
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Jack T. Paxton
Senior Member
Username: Jpaxton

Post Number: 851
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 24.27.231.67
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 07:57 pm:   

I'm not sure if this is relevent BUT: Several weeks ago I attended a luncheon in Orlando where the Commanding General, Marine Corps Recruiting Command, spoke. He is a personal friend and a no-nonsense two star. He spoke on the "state" of Marine Corps recruiting - officer and enlisted. At present, a prospective Marine Corps recruit MUST be a high school graduate. A youth with a high school GED equivalent will NOT be accepted. A college grad will be accepted from academies, ROTC, ONLY if they agree to come in immediately following graduation. If they wait any length of time, they will not be accepted. As he explained: "I get so many congressional inquiries that this kid has always wanted to be a marine...my thought: why did he wait three years after graduation to want to come in. Could it have been that because of the economy he suddenly decided?"

Point of all of this: The services - especially Marine Corps - are seemingly not hurting for enlistees or officer candidates. I would think this might also translate down to the active duty establishment. As my friend ended his talk he said, simply, "You know, many of us in this room might not now qualify for the Marine Corps.

Could it be the times are changing?
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Chuck F
Member
Username: Snipe

Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 68.1.96.12
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 10:41 pm:   

I should have used"forced" not "busted".
I do not know of any "Chief's boot camp" unless they are referring to the initiation the people are required to go through now. I always felt the 13 years I wore a Dixie Cup was enough training.
To paraphrase "This ain't my kind of Navy."

Chuck F.
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Bill Gast
Advanced Member
Username: Actionwriter

Post Number: 197
Registered: 12-2008
Posted From: 96.8.222.198
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 09:47 pm:   

I know-firsthand about RIF. I got a RIF letter in 1992 and was gone in three months. No rebutal, no excuses or extentions--it smarts but you move on. I was 62 and still air crew qualified ( ADMCPO) and could do the 17 minute miles with the kids on anual PMT. Today, even the uniforms are no longer NAVY. Look more like,...well different. Next thing you know Flight crew will be ironing their flight suits and wearing scarfs.(:
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 208
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 09:35 pm:   

It is obvious, at least to me, that it is a RIF and that, like most all RIFs, those to leave must be selected. Navy Times has chosen to cast it in the light of the Navy getting rid of deadwood and that is not the case. I think nearly all Chiefs perform at a satisfactory level, some perform better than others.

When selection boards select SCPOs and MCPOs those not selected are not depicted as poor performers and neither should those not selected in this instance.

All will be permitted to complete twenty years. A truly poor performer would not be given that opportunity.

Navy Times chose to create an attention grabbing headline, and a misleading one, at the expense of Navy Chiefs.
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John D.
Moderator
Username: John_d

Post Number: 4553
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 95.208.80.143
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 01:37 pm:   

Cherry asked, "Does anybody here know the stated reason(s)??"

I don't know but I would expect it could be the same reason the USAF is downsizing approx 5,000 (combination of RIF and selected early retirement) this year - end strength (retention is at an all time high and less folks are retiring when they are eligible) and budget cuts.
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E.L.Fink
Intermediate Member
Username: Yahootie

Post Number: 113
Registered: 08-2009
Posted From: 75.247.223.213
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   

Chuck F,
I have heard about a Chief's Boot Camp, set up for wayward Chiefs. Know if there is any truth in it?
elf
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 207
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   

From www.navytimes.com


"Chiefs face the ax More sailors at risk in forced­retirement board

By Mark D. Faram

mfaram@militarytimes.com

As many as 9,000 active-duty and reserve chiefs, senior chiefs and master chiefs will go before a forced retirement board on Sept. 20 — 3,000 more than the number considered last year when the board first met."

Go to Navy Times for the rest of the story.
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Cherry C.
Senior Member
Username: Cherry

Post Number: 6411
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 71.163.18.160
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 11:22 am:   

"Busted out," not just retired as unnecessary as part of a RIF?

That IS amazing. Does anybody here know the stated reason(s)??
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Chuck F
Member
Username: Snipe

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 68.1.96.12
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 04:27 am:   

I Spent over 21 years in the Navy and in all that time I only new of one chief that got busted to first. The Navy Times has, in big letters, that 9000 chiefs are being busted out of the Navy.
THAT IS STRANGE AND DIFFERENT.

Chuck F.
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Charlie S
Intermediate Member
Username: Avcm

Post Number: 133
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 76.109.41.57
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 05:18 pm:   

Visited with my daughter in Norfolk this past week who is getting her first look at chief this year. According to her the scuttlebutt is that the initiation is going to become "an induction" very soon. Sure ain't my Navy.
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 203
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 01:59 pm:   

Cherry C.: That is a recent development, since the Navy went on a fitness kick and Chief's no longer have a built in shelf just above the belt buckle.
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E.L.Fink
Intermediate Member
Username: Yahootie

Post Number: 109
Registered: 08-2009
Posted From: 75.223.236.27
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 01:19 pm:   



elf
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Cherry C.
Senior Member
Username: Cherry

Post Number: 6392
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 71.163.18.160
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 09:57 pm:   

Ed, surely the Navy brass still allow the new Chief to have his coffee mug surgically attached to his thumb?
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ed williamson
Advanced Member
Username: Regnav

Post Number: 202
Registered: 07-2009
Posted From: 76.114.109.206
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 11:40 pm:   

The Navy lost a big one some years ago when the traditonal Chief's initiation was shut down. Something about too much alcohol and fun to let it continue. Personally I really, really didn't mind being paraded through the streets of Saigon on a flat bed truck wearing a bed sheet, with yellow spots, as a diaper. Seriously though, they did sometimes get a bit out of hand, however the bonding was terriffic and we knew everyone had gone through it, for generations. Sorta like crossing the equator but with vast amounts of booze added.

Of course no one is made to walk the plank anymore, and we no longer hang folks from the yard arm. Still............
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steve mccoy
Intermediate Member
Username: Nuhusker

Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2009
Posted From: 69.18.53.101
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 05:17 pm:   

I fear it's about to get a lot stranger than umbrellas and baby carriages.
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Bill Terry
Senior Member
Username: Bill_terry

Post Number: 661
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 72.216.34.240
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   

Yeah, next thing you know soldiers in uniform will carry umbrellas and push baby carriages.
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Earl
Senior Member
Username: Myramstein

Post Number: 763
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 173.106.26.65
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20100524/062bffb7-12c2-4dd8-98b1-c3d9 85d00c85



Another example of lost tradition. One should read the book “Kinder Gentler Military” (read the book – you will know what I mean). Just a statement of fact.

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